Joseph Smith and the Rational God part 6 – Retrieving the Plates

Accordingly, as I had been commanded, I went at the end of each year, and at each time I found the same messenger there except the second year when I brought Samuel Lawrence, a man of magic to the hill, and the messenger did not appear, and received instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews, respecting what the Lord was going to do, and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be conducted in the last days.

For example, He explained His gospel to me, and that Baptism was required. He informed me at this time, and I have written it down so that I would not forget, or rather, I caused it to be written, that John the Baptist would appear to me when the time came for baptism, and that I should know him by the tokens and signs given to me to know a true messenger.

Further, he told me other visitors would come, including Peter, James and John, that I should expect them, but that they should come later, and John the Baptist would be first.

He also instructed me that his Kingdom would contain twelve apostles, as it did of old, and a prophet at the head with two counselors. There would be a quorum of seventy who were sent to preach to all corners of the earth.

Now at this time I was shocked that we would ever have seventy members in an organization, not withstanding the idea of seventy merely to preach.

And I did inquire of the messenger, “How shall this be seeing that I am a boy and I don’t even have the book?”

And Moroni, the messenger, said, “With God nothing is impossible, especially organizing bureaucracy.” and I was amazed.

As my father’s worldly circumstances were very limited, we were under the necessity of laboring with our hands, hiring out by day’s work and otherwise, as we could get opportunity. Sometimes we were at home, and sometimes abroad, and by continuous labor were enabled to get a comfortable maintenance.

It is the year 1823 and my father’s family met with a great affliction by the death of my eldest brother, Alvin. And Hyrum, my brother, did begin to write for me.

In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine, or hidden treasure of silver that might magically move while digging for it.

After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, and I picked up a shovel and dug along with everyone else, not being a treasure seeker or seer stone gazer at all. And when I saw the manner in which they dug, which was to have a person stare at a rock, and then decide to dig, yea, even at midnight, I said, “Nuts to this,” and quit.

During this time of employment, I was put to board with a Mr. Isaac Hale, of that place. His daughter is comely, and easy upon one’s eyes. I inquired after the health of her family and she actually spoke with me. It was magical, and the feeling in my bosom could only be compared to the love of God I felt when I first saw him in the grove.

I think there is a chance we might dance one day. And Hyrum did slap me in the head as I was saying this and asked me to focus on the story and not express any romantic feelings for this goddess among men. She stands over six foot tall which seems to turn other gentlemen away, and I for my height figure I have a chance with her, and Hyrum did write, Good luck with that, and I did see it and slapped him on the head.

The 18th of January, 1827, Joseph Smith was married to Emma, I, Hyrum was wrong, and I write a few words, because Joseph is on his honeymoon. And the wedding was faire, and all the family was invited, and no elopement was required, for Mr. Hale was proud of Joseph for turning away from the money diggers. So proud that he did give Emma a sizable dowery and it should set Joseph and Emma up well in whatever part of the country he should desire.

At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate and the sword, which the angel agreed could be sold to a museum to finance the printing of the Book of Mormon. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: You shall be responsible for these plates. We put a lot of work into keeping them from angry lamanites who really wanted to destroy them, so you really must be careful. Also the 34th page of the book of Alma bends a little funny, don’t screw up the words there. And if you should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect, you should be cut off.

And I said, “Cut off?! Like dead, or like, unable to translate for a season?”

And Moroni said, “Sorry, that’s me scaring you again… Just be careful with them, okay? They’re really important and I died for them! Look if you use all your endeavors to preserve them, until I call for them, they’ll be protected.

And I was comforted, because no sooner was it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get them from me. I sent my father to spy on Samuel Lawrence, the man I took the second year to the hill, and he had been hired by William Chase to form a treasure-hunting party, which I did not sign a contract with, to try and get them from me. Despite my father watching them all night, somehow they jumped me as I was carrying these 60 lbs plates home. Given that I could never defend them so early on, and the plates being so heavy, and the walk home exerting me, I saw at once, a host of warriors, clad as it were, Native Americans; and they did stand around me and guard me home. And my attackers did fear greatly, and did retreat, which is lucky because otherwise I might have dislocated my thumb hitting one.

But by the wisdom and assistance of God, they remained safe in my hands, until I had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. and I did not lose them for a time by handing over a portion of them to a man who said he walked and talked with Jesus in the form of a deer, because Martin Harris was a crazy wealthy man who wanted to be included on this, but due to the profits of the solid-gold hilted sword, I needed no financial assistance in publishing the book when the work was translated. And, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight.

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Joseph Smith and the Rational God, Part 5 – Asking some questions of Moroni

He also quoted the second chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be. And he further stated that the fullness of the Gentiles was soon to come in. He quoted many other passages of Scripture, and offered many explanations which cannot be mentioned here.

Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed.

And I replied, “Destroyed?! Why would you kill me for showing plates to people?”

And Moroni replied, “Sorry, there I go, doing that fear thing again. It’s really a bad motivator. If you show them to people, the odds that the person you show a giant golden book to will kill you and take the book are really too high. It’s not rational to show a golden book to people.”

And I said, “But the breastplate?”

and he replied, “It has jewels on it.”

And I said, “The Urim and Thummim?”

He replied, “You know it’s interesting that I said Urim and Thummim, because you’re not going to use that phrase for the next fifteen years. You’re going to call them ‘nephite interpreters.’ I just realized that. That’s neither here, nor there. The point is they are stones set into silver that let people see amazing things. They’ll try to steal them, too.”

And I said, “Okay, but my family, right, I could show them? And maybe my wife when I get married? They wouldn’t kill me.”

And he replied, “Yes, that makes sense. They could see them, and bare testimony.”

While he was conversing with me about the plates, and notice we were having a conversation, that’s what “conversing” means, the vision was opened to my mind that I could see the place where the plates were deposited, and that so clearly and distinctly that I knew the place again when I visited it.

After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

And I was very impressed that I woke up my family. My father first, and explained to him what had happened. And I explained to him the things the angel said. While we were conversing about the plates we suddenly discovered that my room was again beginning to get lighted, and in an instant, as it were, the same heavenly messenger was again in the house.

He introduced himself to my Father, so that there would be no question about my tiredness the next day and commenced, and again related the very same things which he had done at his first visit, without the least variation. I assume this is so that I could memorize the scriptures, and my father would have the same instruction. Simply repeating the instructions when I had a clear vision of the place would seem, almost silly. Especially since he could appear anywhere at any time, as demonstrated by him appearing in my bedroom.

I then asked him a further question, “Why do you appear via a gradual light, but when leaving, you ascend through a conduit into heaven?”

Moroni then replied, “It is an illusion to the mortal mind. The whiteness you see is the opening of the conduit. When we angels travel, we must traverse faster than even light; which according to the laws of the universe, means that we, having resurrected bodies, must have our mass altered. To effect this change on our mass, allowing travel, the white conduits are required.”

Although shocked, I found my tongue and inquired, “But this effect upon one’s mass, it allows one to pass through the roof, despite having a physical body, without impacting the roof?”

Moroni replied, “As you have seen demonstrated, yes, the effect upon the mass does alter the relative space allowing one to pass through any object.”

Then, although I have memorized so many of his words and scriptures to exactness, knowing the few words he used differently; I decided to start writing in vague terms about what the angel said. He informed me of great judgments which were coming upon the earth, with great desolations by famine, sword, and pestilence; and that these grievous judgments would come on the earth in this generation. Having related these things, he again ascended as he had done before. Indeed, he did mention a war between the states, that would be fought over the question of slavery starting in North Carolina that would be most terrible. He mentioned a potato famine in Ireland that would come around the same time as this Civil War, driving many from their homes. He also mentioned how smallpox would severely impact his people in this generation; and how they would be driven out of their homes from the sea west to the sea east.

By this time, so deep were the impressions made on my mind, that sleep had fled from my eyes, and my father and I fetched Alvin, and woke him. And he did begin to write this tale on my behalf. But what was my surprise when again I beheld the same messenger in our home, and heard him rehearse or repeat over again to me the same things as before; so that Alvin could clearly and correctly make a record of the exact words and conversations, for we see that God cares about accurate history and will not suffer his people to doubt by failing to have words written. Does it not speak to his longsuffering and willingness to keep a good history that He had His servant, Moroni, repeat the tale to my Father and again to my Brother?

He also added a caution to me, telling me that Satan would try to tempt me (in consequence of the indigent circumstances of my father’s family), to get the plates for the purpose of getting rich. I assume also he mentioned this due to the contract I had signed with treasure seekers previous to this, but I was not a treasure seeker, and simply had signed a contract which was foolish of me. Moroni, was clearly aware that those treasure seekers would try to collect on that contract, seeing as I had found a golden object in the ground. This he forbade me, saying that I must have no other object in view in getting the plates but to glorify God, and must not be influenced by any other motive than that of building his kingdom; otherwise I could not get them. This is why I will never try to sell the copyright on any work that comes from this golden book. For such would illustrate that I had a motive other than building His kingdom.

Almost immediately after the heavenly messenger had ascended from me for the third time, the cock crowed, and I found that day was approaching, so that our interviews must have occupied the whole of that night.

My Father, understanding that this work, due to him having me, God, and Moroni, and receiving instruction as well as myself, was far more important than menial farm chores, sent me to recover the book.

As I headed to the location of the book, while crossing a fence, out of the field where we were, my strength entirely failed me, and I fell helpless on the ground, and for a time was quite unconscious of anything.

When I came to, I headed directly to the spot, as my father had already commanded me, he having spoken with Moroni already, and owing to the distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning it, I knew the place the instant that I arrived there.

Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger, As well as a largish sword with a golden hilt, and rusted steel blade. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.

I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger who in no way resembled a toad, or a frog, or a salamander, nor did he have his throat slit from ear to ear. He was just the same as I described him earlier. I was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived because after all, the messenger had told me this three times already, and I kinda felt dumb for immediately forgetting that he said that. And he said the time would not arrive until four years from that time; but he told me that I should come to that place precisely in one year from that time, and that he would there meet with me, and that I should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates.

And I did say to him, “Moroni, what about this sword?”

And Moroni said, “What? Hmm, oh that, I’d forgotten all about that.”

And I did say, “This sword, with a pure gold hilt, is it required for the translation of God’s work?”

And Moroni did say, “No, it is not part of the translation.”

And I did reply, “Then let me sell this sword to a museum, that I may fund any printing costs of translating the book, and leave a testimony in a museum to the truthfulness of this work.”

And Moroni was amazed.

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Joseph Smith and the Rational God part 4 (Popularity, Ridicule, Fear, Tradition, Martyr and other Manipulations)

And I Joseph, did pray much, and read much in the Bible, and did prepare myself for further contact with God; for I had no doubt in my mind that I had some import, being contacted and taught by the Lord.

And I did not engage in any employ involving any magic, scrying, or anything else that might impact the world’s view upon this important thing that I might do, and for fear of the Lord, lest he rebuke me for turning to questionable employ, I did labor hard with mine own hand. Yea, even our entire family did cease to be idle, cease our loud laughter and our light speeches from our lustful desires and our pride and light mindedness.

And I did fall into some foibles of human nature (which will not be edited out by Willard Richards at a much later date), which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, but I did repent of these things and cease them in preparation of meeting again with God.

On the evening of the above-mentioned twenty-first of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my state and standing before him; for I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation, as I previously had one.

While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen Except the whiteness of the Lord and His Father, which I had seen in 1820, four years previous to this event. Yea, they were at least equally as white if not whiter, because I really did see them four years priornor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe And an undergarment which was interesting to me for I never before thought that angels might wear undergarments, and so I make a noteas it was open, so that I could see into his bosom and see the undergarment, and it did appear around his neck like a large smile, and I did wonder if the undergarment was magic.

Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning, or like the noon day sun, the same as my previous vision. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me, for I recognized him as that Indian, Moroni, that The Lord introduced me to at my first vision, and did say that I would meet again. And yea, the words of the Lord were fulfilled.

He called me by name, and gave me the tokens and symbols I was instructed to know a true messenger by; therefore, I had confidence that this messenger came from God.

He said God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

And I said, “Moroni, why should the world know my name and why begin by making me afraid?”

And Moroni said, “I’m sorry, that was rude. This work is very key. It will be wonderful, but it will make many people upset as so your name will be had for good, by people who appreciate it, and bad by those who hate it. It’s not really you, it’s the work. But I wanted you to know what you were getting into.”

And he further continued, “Now that I think about it, it would probably have been better for me to come in through the front door, introduce myself to your family and then make your hearts within you burn like Christ did in the New Testament. It wouldn’t have made you afraid at all, and instead would have brought your entire family in to help support you.”

He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He was actually very specific about this citing that they were, in fact, not simply among other individuals, but the source of everyone on the continent. As in, all of them called “indians.” I wrote this down in my journal, “I was informed also concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was made known unto me.”

you can read it here: (Joseph Smith, Latter Day Saints, p.404-405).

I want to be clear, these are the Native Americans in THIS COUNTRY. I’d hate for a later version of myself to alter the location when facts were presented so I wrote this down to be very clear.

He also said that the fullness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

I want to make a note of this now, because if I never wrote about the Urim and Thummim, and someone else were to mention it for the first time, like Samuel Lawerence, that old sooth sayer on the hill, it would be an embarrassment and basically contradict my whole story[1] .

After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old Testament. He first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi; and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting the first verse as it reads in our books, he quoted it thus:

For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble; for they that come shall burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Which verses had the following effect on me. I was first very afraid that we were at the end times and everyone was going to die, but then I was excited to know that first Elijah would come, and something called “priesthood” would be given. I had only known priesthood to be a group of men leading a church up until this point, so I inquired about the priesthood.

He replied that the Priesthood is the keys and authority for men to reveal the power of God on the earth, and without this priesthood, the power of god was not manifest.

And I, Joseph, inquired who had this priesthood, and Moroni replied that it had been lost with the early apostles except for a few who were not allowed to intervene at this point, but that I should meet them later.

He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament which thing amazed me since he was an indian quoting greek. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,” but soon would come.

To which I replied, truly I fear for all of mankind. It sounds great and dreadful.

And Moroni replied, “Sorry, I don’t mean to scare you. It would be terrible to have people serve god purely out of fear. Instead I was hoping to create a sense of urgency; that’s why we didn’t tell your family about this book for four years. I mean, we didn’t, but we should have, because this is very urgent, I assure you.”

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Joseph Smith and the Rational God – part 3

Questions and Answers

And I, Joseph, did return for a third day to the grove. And at this time my family became greatly excited about all that we had discussed and many of them were interested and wished to accompany us to the Grove, but we did not, as of yet, have them come.

But Alvin, my Brother, (Who wrote this record by his own hand) did come, and we saw the Lord for a third time.

And we did say as we approached, “Oh Lord; we have thought about what thou didst say about authority, and we have some questions for thee.”

“That is good,” replied the one who was identified as “Son,” “For asking questions is a good thing, and it will help one discover truth.”

“Oh Lord, We have looked at the scriptures to determine which of all religions are right, and little Don Carlos, he’s my brother, he said, ‘but how do we know the scriptures are right?’ And if authority is to be questioned, oh Lord, and the scriptures are written by authorities, well it begs the question, why should we trust the scriptures?”

“This is the right sort of question,” saith the Lord, “For it knocks upon the doors that bar knowledge, it seeks to find a deeper truth. Asking this sort of question will bring truth unto you.”

And Alvin and myself were much relieved that the Lord was grateful to have his scriptures questioned, and he did impart many words unto us of knowledge, but we, being so nervous did not write them all down, but we did write many, and we hope they are a guide to those who should read these words.

And the Lord said something close to, “In as much as I have made the claim ‘this is my beloved son, hear him,’ I have made a claim that is beyond common expectation, and thus extraordinary evidence should be presented to go with it. Behold, I could be the Devil appearing as an angel of light. Or I could be a dream or hallucination which are so common among the children of men. Therefore, the burden of proof upon my claim is mine, and I must redeem it, otherwise no man can be held responsible for their lack of faith. This thing is justice.”

And Alvin and myself were amazed that the Lord would prove himself to us, for we had never before thought of such an thing.

And the Lord said, “Behold the nail prints in my hands and feet, and the spear wound in my side. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. These wounds are more than mortal man can bare, and these things are not permitted that the devil should copy them.”

“Therefore these marks are sure.”

“Now, Ye may say, ‘Lord, thou dost not give us anything but thy word in this matter, is this not a contradiction?’ but trust and faith must begin somewhere, and ye shall see this trust is not ill-placed.”

And the Lord did show us many signs and tokens by which we might know a true messenger. Indeed, He did say, “When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.”

Then the Lord did introduce us to one such messenger. And my brother did remember that he was not writing the words, and did take up his pen again and did write.

“This is an angel, Moroni. He lived upon this continent long before the gentiles arrived. I introduce him now so that you may know him and there need not be any confusing accounts wherein ye might call him Nephi, or say he was a toad, or report him as a Spaniard cut ear-to-ear, nor that ye may need to pay an occult practicer a large sum of money that you might contact the dead.”

“But that ye may know that this is a true messenger, He will now shake your hand, and give you the tokens by which ye may know him to be true. And these Tokens are not to be kept secret, but should be known unto those who believe. But further, for men shall say that ye, Joseph Smith, invented these tokens, or that they were taken from the Masonic Order to which thine father belongs, I will cause a different image each day to appear in the minds and hearts of those who receive the token, that they might know this message is from me. And a false message will not generate the image in their minds.”

“Thus, if any man doubts a message, he can confirm the image with those around him who also received the message, and if all are agreed, then the message may be known to be true with a surety that is not perfect, for there is no perfect system on the Earth, nor shall there ever be, but we can correct mistakes as they occur.”

And thus Moroni did shake our hands, and did introduce himself, and told us about his people, and how Jesus did visit them once. And these things were interesting to us, but we know not why he was introduced, save that he should visit us again.

And the Lord did command that my family should come, and they were witness to Moroni, and the Lord, yea, My father, my Mother, My brothers and sisters were all witnesses. Yea, even female witnesses, for the Lord surely esteemeth one flesh as much as another, even one gender is not better than another.

And the Lord did not appear again, but we all rejoiced and did not attend the church in the area, and many of the preachers reviled against my entire family, because we asked hard questions, and questioned authority, and required a burden of proof. And the preachers did stir up the hearts of the citizens against us, but we were secure in the knowledge that the Lord had given us these tools and that they were not pursuing us for treasure hunting or some other illegal act.

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Joseph and the Rational God – Part 2

I, Joseph, did return unto the Grove, with my Brother, and did behold that the personages I did speak to the previous day were there again.

And Alvin and I had spent the night, with my family, conversing upon how a man might know truth, or which of all the religions were correct.

And I did approach the Lord, and I did say, “O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.”

Nevertheless, thou hast been merciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity for I have conversed with my family and we do believe that the way to tell a true religion, or a religion which is thine, O Lord, is to listen to the leadership of the religion, and to obey them and see if the doctrine is thine or not. And we did come to this conclusion by reading thine own words in John 17:7, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”

And the Lord did speak unto me saying, “Fear not, for I am thy God and will still give the aid. I will not upbraid nor censure those who seek me earnestly. Now as trusting those who state their own authority, this is not a secure method, for behold, every man will claim his own authority. And every authority can be fooled, or speak his own mind, and claim it to be the mind of God. No religion that is mine would depend heavily upon the authority of leadership.”

“But as to trying works and testing them, this thing pleaseth me, for verily, if one did test the words with works, one could find truth. However, there is something that shall be known unto the peoples of the earth as ‘Confirmation Bias’ in that when one embarks upon an experiment upon the word, one is predisposed to believe an outcome, yea, and that very individual can sometimes accept events or words as confirming the outcome, and ignore those that would disprove it.

Therefore, a commandment I give unto you, My servant Joseph, inasmuch as ye have sought me earnestly, in wisdom and in truth, with pure intent, ye shall falsify all thine data. Of every attempt thou shalt attempt to prove it false, that thou mayest be more sure.”

“Nevertheless, I have more to teach thee. Go unto thine home and ponder these things with thine family and return unto me on the morrow that we may yet again converse.”

And Alvin and I did return unto our homes, and our family did discuss these things late into the night. And we did learn many things and think of many things, and we were very excited.

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Joseph Smith and the Rational God – Part 1

[Note: This is based on the concepts and thoughts on LessWrong.com, in the same way that the fanfic “Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality”[1] is. I guess that makes this a kind of fanfic, which I never thought I would write. But I think viewing the entire thing as though it were true, but rational, would be helpful to someone somewhere. Please enjoy. Direct quotes from Joseph Smith History are italicized so you can quickly skim them]

I, Alvin Smith, have been commanded by God to make this record of most remarkable events, on behalf of my brother. I make it with my own hand, as a scribe on his behalf. What follows is his story:

I, Joseph Smith, having seen a vision of God the Father, and Jesus Christ, received instruction to make a record immediately so as to prevent evil and conspiring men from taking confusion as a counter to actual events, for God sees all things in advance, and is wise in his choices, therefore I make this record, this day September 6th 1820. And Alvin is a witness to all these events, for, as the Lord hath said, “in the Mouths of two or three witnesses, shall every word be established.”

I was born in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and five, on the twenty-third day of December, in the town of Sharon, Windsor county, State of Vermont … My father, Joseph Smith, Sen., left the State of Vermont, and moved to Palmyra, Ontario (now Wayne) county, in the State of New York, when I was in my tenth year, or thereabouts. In about four years after my father’s arrival in Palmyra, he moved with his family into Manchester in the same county of Ontario—

His family consisting of eleven souls, namely, my father, Joseph Smith; my mother, Lucy Smith (whose name, previous to her marriage, was Mack, daughter of Solomon Mack); my brothers, Alvin (20), Hyrum, myself (14), Samuel Harrison, William, Don Carlos; and my sisters, Sophronia, Catherine, and Lucy.

I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture. Indeed, I hope anyone in authority who reads these words will focus on the importance on not upbraiding those who lack wisdom, and ask questions. This is really important. Honestly.

So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—”This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”

I then immediately asked which, of all the religions was correct. The one referred to as “Son” instructed me to return to my house forthwith, and retrieve my Brother Alvin, so that two witnesses would be present. Further he instructed me to bring paper and writing material that a Record might be kept. For, he said, a record would be very key to his true people, and journals and other records would be a might part of this work. And whereas I am not mighty in writing, Alvin would write the words which I would say.

And I did so, and My brother and I did return to the spot, and The Lord was still there, and I did again enquire of him which of all the churches was correct.

And the Lord said, “How can you tell if a church or religion is correct? What tests have you run?”

And I replied, “Lord, I hadn’t though of testing religion. It seemed that I needed only to ask.”

And the Lord replied, “But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right, but your study must be thorough long before you ask, therefore I ask ‘What tests have you run?'”

And I, Joseph had not run any tests, and therefore I answered, “I have constructed no tests as of yet.”

And the Lord said, “There are many who claim to be mine who are not. Therefore, I give unto you a first test, that you may tell truth from error, if any man should fail to use reason, but instead should assault the character or the name of his opponent, that man is not of me. And ye shall call the first test, “Ad Hominem.” Those who use it are not of me nor of mine, and thus if they cry, “lo here,” or, “lo there,” thou mayest know that they come not from me if they continue to say, “lo here, but there is Racca,” or, “low there, but here is a fool.”

“Now go forward and apply this test and then return and report unto me and more light and knowledge will be granted.”

And Alvin and I, Joseph, did go and think upon this test the Lord had given us, and did devise several of our own tests and we did return and report the next day.

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First Vision Timeline

Evolution of the First Vision Story

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How to use these discussions: A guide

How to use these discussions

No name tags. You don’t need to shave. Be presentable and personable. Emotions matter.

These discussions were created to help those who may have left the church share their thoughts and feelings in a format that family and friends still in the church could appreciate. These are not intended to be weapons to attack the faith of individuals, but rather, tools to accommodate understanding.

We strongly encourage that you present these discussions with another person –not because that is a pattern established by Christ, but because having two agreeing individuals present is very difficult to disagree with. In addition, many people will not resort to personal attacks or harmful tactics when a stranger is present, making the information easier to teach all the way through. Sometimes, getting to the ending conclusions makes all the difference in the investigator’s attitude.

Encourage your investigator to share their feelings at any point. Emotions can run deep, from betrayal and anger to relief and elation, at hearing the material presented. Your job is to create a safe environment for open discussion.

If your investigator fidgets often, refuses to meet you in the eye, or lashes out, these are all signs of the environment becoming less safe. Do no hesitate to pause the discussion and recreate a friendly atmosphere of openness.

These discussions are not intended to always be read straight through. Many times a paragraph or section in one discussion may apply to a situation. Feel free to jump to that section and cover the information with the investigator to resolve any concerns he or she may have.

During the presentation, you’ll find various sections labelled, “Commitment.” These help an investigator progress along the path towards freedom of thought. Remember to build up on common ground, share your feelings, and to use “Will You” questions when getting an investigator to commit to the challenges presented. Doing this increases the chances of them committing and following those commitments. Always follow up on commitments made with an investigator.

If, at any time, your investigator seems ready to leave the church present them with the following information: http://www.mormonresignation.com/[1]

Remember, you’re doing this to help them learn more about their own beliefs and to help them understand yours. Maintain a positive, friendly environment, and resist attempts to bible-bash or prove yourself right, as these have been shown far less likely to commit anyone than emotional discussion has.

A good way to bring up these discussions with a stranger might be to say, “What if I could save you several hundred thousand dollars and several hours a week?”

Inactivity value calculator

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Sixth Discussion – Exit Strategy

  • Follow up with your investigator on anything they previously committed to. This is a good time to ask them about their personal feelings about God and Jesus Christ. No answer is wrong, it’s good just to listen.

Thank you for having us back. Many individuals, when they have heard the things we have shared, want to know more. Today we’re going to cover further information and research on your own, as well as discuss some steps going forward.

As we share these things with you, we want you to be aware of your feelings as well as what you are thinking. We ask you to consider how you felt about knowing truth when we started, compared to the things we discuss today.

We respect your thoughts and feelings and invite you to share them with us.

Other Points of Research

We’ve only shared with you a handful of issues with the correlated story the church puts forward. There are many, many issues, some of them far more difficult to cope with, than what we have shared in these discussions. We are briefly going to mention a few of these and then invite you to do your own research or investigations. We will also be providing you with some tools to cope with information.

  • Note: Many individuals will have done their own research at this point. You can skip any of these points or delve deeper as your own judgement dictates.

The Book of Abraham

Members of the church were doubting if Joseph was a prophet. A man came into Nauvoo with papyri and a pair of Egyptian mummies. The members fetched Joseph Smith and asked him to translate the Egyptian to prove he was still a prophet. Joseph declared that the writings were written by Abraham, by his own hand, upon papyrus. The story of how this book clearly demonstrates that Joseph Smith fraudulently tried to convince the members of the church using these mummies, as well as how mormon scholars tried to cover the fraud, is available in this book[1].

The Kinderhook Plates

The Kinderhook Plates were another attempt to test if Joseph Smith was a genuine prophet. Men conspired to create false plates and then showed them to Joseph. Joseph declared them to be written by a descendant of Ham. The men then revealed that they had forged them to trick Joseph. Mormon scholars defended Joseph and discussed the plates until scientific processes declared them to be forgeries. Correlated manuals now make no mention of the Kinderhook plates. More information about these can be found here[2].

Succession

When Joseph Smith died, he had no clear successor. Indeed, Joseph had declared that Hyrum would succeed him as well as his own son when his son was of age. But Hyrum died with Joseph, and his son was only nine years old. This led to a crisis with members. The correlated manuals indicate that Brigham was clearly a chosen successor, but there is no contemporary record of such a thing. In fact, there was a statement in the history of the church (“Without the first presidency, there is no quorum of the twelve apostles”) that was changed by two apostles after Brigham Young took over. Almost all statements in manuals about how Joseph said to follow the apostles were made 40-50 years after Joseph died, long after the saints were well established in Utah. That is because Joseph’s son did claim the right to be prophet and the church in the west gathered around him. This church became the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and it never believed in polygamy or various other teachings. You can learn more about other branches of the church, including James Strang who lead about 1/4 of the members from Nauvoo, here[3].

The Church today is a Corporation

Many members believe they belong to a church that continues, unbroken, to the church of Joseph Smith and, in some ways, back to Adam. Very few are aware that the Supreme Court of the United States ordered the church ended in 1890. The legal case can be found here[4].

The newly formed church that came after this was a corporation set up after the manner of the Vatican. That is, it is a private corporation that owns a non-profit. The tithing donations and other monies collected by the non-profit go directly into the corporation. This corporation owns many, many private companies as we’ve discussed. Understanding that the church ended may change how many members feel about the statement, “I know the church is true,” as the church they are baring witness to isn’t the same organization to which they belong. We don’t feel that someone who doesn’t even know what “the church” is, can really “know” if it is true.

To be a member of the 19th century church was to be liar

In the early days of the church in Utah, the Mormon creed was “To mind your own business.” This creed was printed originally by Joseph Smith himself in the WASP newspaper. The reason for this creed being spread throughout the members was polygamy. Federal Marshals were trying to capture members and prosecute them for this very illegal practice. Wives and children were encouraged to lie, even in court after swearing an oath, to protect their polygamist husbands and fathers. Joseph F. Smith, as prophet, testified that he never had a revelation (except to know the Book of Mormon was true) in the Reed Smoot trials before congress. More about required lying in the 19th century is available here[5].

Modern lying by General Authorities is documented here[6].

How we can know truth

It is difficult for members to tell if what many of the things we are saying are based on truth. Sometimes, members believe that sources have been tampered with, such as with Mark Hofmann. Others believe that anything on the internet is a lie. Still others believe that anyone who is not on board with the correlation committee is an evil scheming individual out to destroy the church.

We find solace in the words of Parley P. Pratt in his song “Oh say, what is truth!”:

Oh say, what is truth? ‘Tis the fairest gem That the riches of worlds can produce, And priceless the value of truth will be when The proud monarch’s costliest diadem Is counted but dross and refuse.

Then say, what is truth? ‘Tis the last and the first, For the limits of time it steps o’er. Though the heavens depart and the earth’s fountains burst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst, Eternal, unchanged, evermore.

  • Note: You may need to explain that a diadem is a type of crown.

Truth need not hide from evaluation. It is not something we need to be afraid of. Embracing truth brings us happiness, honor, and success.

  • Relate a story when truth helped you be more successful.

Fallacies

When considering truth, people who have gone before us have identified common mistakes humans make when trying to ascertain it. They put together a list of these common mistakes, called “fallacies.” Here is one such list[7].

Many times, conference talks and other talks by leaders use fallacies to lead members to make conclusions.

  • Ask your investigator why a true leader might use a known logical mistake to lead followers to a conclusion.

Historical accuracy

It is, of course, almost impossible to know the historical accuracy of information for sure. Mistakes happen, intentional forgers and con-men exist, and apologists commonly apply bad information or misinformation to confuse issues. But there are some guidelines that can help.

First, learn to identify facts. A historical fact is something that you can touch, see, or read. Whether or not it exists is not in dispute. Some examples of facts are Joseph Smith’s seer stones, that are on display in a museum, or the letters from him to his plural wives. These letters are not really disputed by either sides.

Second, learn to identify bias. A bias is an inclination to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives. Everyone has biases, but the important thing is to realize a person’s bias and determine how large that bias is. For example, church apologists often claim that ex-mormons attack the church because they are paid well to write books. This attack claims that money has biased the writers. It is important to also note that church apologists are also paid to write books. They also have a bias, and often receive their paychecks from the organization. Biases are important to recognize.

When people around Joseph Smith, who believe him to be a prophet, write something that is shocking to members, these members often ignore those writings. But one should realize the members are biased in favor of Joseph, therefore, the bias should be considered large and in favor of Joseph. Therefore, any fact containing such information should be given heavier weight when considered.

Facts tell stories

When facts are assembled and biases considered, a story emerges. Not all people agree on what the story is to be told. Each of the things we’ve presented is a story based on facts. Even though new science, information, or facts may come forward that may invalidate one of the stories we’ve told, that should not worry or frighten the truth seeker. Holding on to your beliefs when new facts come out is not and endearing quality. One should always be willing to alter the stories, and one’s way of life, when new facts or biases are revealed.

Should You Decide to Leave the Church

  • Note: If at any point your investigator decides he/she is done with the church in this or any other discussion, please read them this section.

Many individuals, when they learn about items we’ve talked about, decide to leave the church. In fact, almost as many people leave the church every year as join it. But leaving an organization such as the Mormon church can be very difficult.

Family

The most difficult piece for many people who leave is telling their family. Parents have been trained to believe that it is a personal failure if their children leave. Siblings and even extended family can feel as though a person died if someone announces they are leaving the church. This can strain relationships.

These discussions were written for the purpose of helping family and friends learn, in a very non-threatening way, why you have made your choices. Who do you know that you would like us to share this message with?

  • Commitment: Get your investigator to identify people who are the most likely to listen to these discussions.

Sometimes family and friends will not listen, no matter what we do or say. We recommend the following points for sharing with family:

Remember that you are the one who changed: They may accuse you of changing, attack your new beliefs, or insult you. Remember that you did change and accept this. Let them know you still love and respect them.

Put your relationship with your family first: By letting them know that they matter most to you, you’ll create a safe environment for communication. Studies have shown that this sort of emotional threat engages the fight or flight reflex just as much as if you were to physically attack someone. By creating a feeling of safety, you relax that reflex, and communication is easier.

Go slow: Sharing all six of these discussions with family and friends at once would be overwhelming. Share new ideas and beliefs slowly, giving them time to adapt and adjust.

Treat them with respect: Often, people who no longer believe can find ideas and habits of believers funny or silly. Do not mock them. It is best to show them respect, and then they are more likely to respect you.

Suicide

Many individuals who go through this process consider other faiths. Others are comfortable with having no belief. For many, it can feel as if the floor dropped out from under them. Many struggle with their sense of self worth.

These feelings, when family pressures are added, can lead to suicidal thoughts. We want you to know that there are support networks for you. You are not alone. If you have suicidal thoughts, please call a support hotline: 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK

Some online groups that help people cope with the stress of leaving are:

Post-mormon.org

http://exmormon.org/

exmormon.reddit.com

Members may see these groups as simply attack groups on the church, but that is seeing only one side. Most of the activity on such sites is helping members cope with old guilt, feelings of being duped or betrayed, and unforgiving family members. These sites have a high turn over rate as people who lose their anger and hurt leave to lead long and fulfilling lives without the church.

  • Note: it is a good idea to have a local list of names of ex-mormon, post-mormon or other groups available to share with your investigator.

Other people decide to stay in the church, but have their beliefs altered. They may not be as harshly against historians or homosexual individuals. There are groups for these individuals as well:

http://latterdaymainstreet.com/

http://www.sunstonemagazine.com/

Mormonstories.org

Finding the New You

Another very common occurrence among members who take these discussions is that they become unsure about which beliefs are theirs and which came from the church. This may sound very odd to outsiders, but it is a very real thing that is felt by many. We invite you to think over how you feel on a variety of issues and share your feelings on them.

Issues strongly taught by the church yet that individuals commonly doubt after:

Homosexuality is wrong.

Abortion is morally wrong unless rape and incest.

Modest clothing limits as defined by the church.

Food Storage as a moral issue.

Divorce is a sign of a wicked nation.

Sexual morality.

Alcohol, drugs, and other recreational devices as morally wrong.

Dependence upon deity for forgiveness and repentance.

We do not wish to dictate to you what to believe about any of these issues, and this is certainly not a complete list of all the subjects individuals find that they have new opinions on. Many find that the church was so ingrained into their lives that even small, everyday tasks become suddenly a question. Please know that this is normal and talk over any questions you have with friends, relatives and others. We even suggest talking to people you don’t know with completely different points of view.

Enjoy Your Journey

With whatever you decide to do, we are happy for you in what you have learned. Your life will be meaningful and rich, and your choices endless. You now have freedom to think, look, research, and decide beyond what many people can comprehend. We admire your courage and open-mindedness and encourage you to enjoy your life.

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Fifth Nonstandard Discussion – Tithing

  • Follow up with your investigators about any commitments they have made. Encourage them that they are doing a good job in learning more and striving to follow their moral conscience.

We have talked about how many items in the church’s history seem muddled and confused, and are perhaps painful to consider the implications of. Many people wonder how such sweet old men running the current church could have such a history behind them and still support the church.

We would like to share some of the things we know and have learned about the current church.

It is important to distinguish between a true communication and simply an idea

Brigham Young once said that Adam and God the Father were one and the same (Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, p.50 – p.51,). Bruce R. McConkie later said that this belief was a heresy. Many of the leaders of the church have said things that conflict with other church leaders, as well as with scientifically proven facts. How can one know if a prophet is speaking as a man or as a prophet?

When Joseph Smith started speaking as the voice of God, a pattern was established. That is, when he was not speaking as a man, he would begin with “Thus saith the Lord” and end with “Amen.” This created a clarity and testable foundation for what ideas came from Joseph the man, and what came from God.

  • Question: Why do you think it is important to establish a true communication from deity and a personally held belief put out as coming from God?
  • Story: Tell the following story in your own words:

A man set up a satellite dish at his house. This was the seventies and so the satellite dish was expensive and large. He pointed it towards one satellite and got one station. He pointed it at another and got another station. He then manually adjusted the satellite to get a forbidden station.

He went into his television and got only static. He refused to change the station back because he was determined to see the forbidden material. He wanted the satellites to line up with him.

Later that week, he bragged to all of his friends how he had been watching illegal shows.

  • Question: Why is it important to not simply accept any static as valid communication?

Historical definition of tithing

The Bible defines tithing as an increase.

Deuteronomy 26:12: “When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year…”

Deuteronomy 14:28: “At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates.”

Doctrine and Covenants 119:4 states it is interest that is tithed: “And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.”

In the early days of the church, one paid 1/10 of all one possessed upon joining the church. This is illustrated by a scripture in Alma. “Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed” (Alma 13:15).

After joining the church, new members only paid 1/10 of one’s increase.

The earliest definition of tithing was to support the poor: “Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery initiated implementation of the principle in 1834, when they pledged one-tenth of all the Lord should give them as an offering for the poor” (HC 2:174-75).

The term “tithing” had been used in some revelations before 1838 (e.g., D&C 64:23; 85:3; 97:11-12), but connoted all free-will offerings or contributions, and were understood to be supporting the poor.

  • Source: Orson Hyde’s quote, “The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man’s substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church [See D&C 119:1], and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after [See D&C 119:4]” (The Millennial Star, 1847).

The Joseph Smith translation of Genesis 14:39 states that Abraham paid tithes from the possessions “which God had given him more than that which he had need” as part of tithing. This agrees with the concept of “interest.”

Current definition of tithing

In the Ensign, various conference talks, and New Era, tithing is defined as ten percent of one’s gross income. Leaders even often say, “10% of one’s interest, which means income.”

  • Question: If you were to ask for a raise from your boss for 10% of your income last year, are you likely to get it? If you are to ask for a raise that is 10% of your increase last year, are you likely to get it? Would the two dollar amounts be equal?

First Presidency letter, “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income“[1].

Spencer W. Kimball: “We have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually’ which is understood to mean income”[2].

“After quoting this scripture the First Presidency said: ‘No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.’ They did, however, point out that ‘interest’ is understood to mean ‘income’”[3] (New Era, Dec. 1975, p. 14-15).

Interest was not defined as income in 1964. Howard W. Hunter said, “The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest.’ Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1964, 35)

1880s policy is clear on the subject. In 1881 obedience to the law of tithing became a requirement for temple attendance (JD 22:207-208): “I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop.”

  • Ask your investigator to define the word “surplus.” If you need to help them out, a definition is available here.

“The Lord’s Tenth,” by James E. Talmage, was a book specifically written to help members of the church understand tithing. Jeffrey R. Holland[4] spoke to members about tithing rephrasing what was printed about seven decades earlier by Talmage. Holland inserts the word “income,” and alters the definition.

Talmage:

“You have need of many things in this world-food, clothing, and shelter for your family and yourself, the common comforts of life, and the things that shall be conducive to refinement, to development, to righteous enjoyment. You desire material possessions to use for the assistance of others… but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase in substance and possessions; you will have your losses, as well as your gain; you will have your periods of trouble as well as your times of peace. Some years will be years of plenty unto you, and others will be of scarcity.

And, now, instead of doing as mortal landlords do-require you to contract with them to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be-you shall pay me not in advance but when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then you can afford to pay me a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then you shall pay me less; and should it be that you are reduced to the utmost penury so that you have nothing coming in, you will pay me nothing.”

  • Explain that this is in harmony with paying on the surplus, but paying on income means paying before you know how they year will be, as well as before needs are met. Also point out the contractual nature of the current definition of tithing.

There is no additional revelation or change that altered “interest” to “income” on record. The general authorities seem to have simply slipped the new definition in, and the members pay.

Other branches of mormonism do not pay 10% of their income

No other branch of LDS theology believes that tithing is 10% of income.

Stake Presidents and Bishops used to be paid positions

In 1888 Wilford Woodruff established set salaries for stake presidents and provided that a stake committee would apportion 10 percent of collected tithing between the bishops and the stake tithing clerk. At April 1896 general conference, the First Presidency announced the end of salaries for local officers, in response to the decision of the temple meeting “to not pay Salaries to any one but the Twelve.”

Tithing pays General Authority modest living allowances

General Authorities are reported as making 6 figure incomes. In Canada, where non-profits are required by law to report such things, the regional authorities are shown as making $160,000 – $199,999.

Tithing is used to send children to reformation camps

  • Note: This subject may be difficult for many members. Only share it if you feel it appropriate.

The church owns a part of the West Ridge Academy and Utah’s Boy Ranch. Tithing and fast offerings from members are used to pay significant sums ($3-5,000 U.S.) for tuition at these camps where the children are subjugated. Reparative therapy for gay/homosexual members is practiced.

The Church owns significant land holdings and corporations

General Authorities hold posts on private company boards. Look at the Board of Directors on each of these companies. There is at least one General Authority:

Deseret Management Corporation[5]

Beneficial Financial Group[6]

Bonneville International[7]

Bonneville Communications [8]

Bonneville Interactive Services

Bonneville Satellite[9]

35 Radio Stations

1 Television Station (KSL)

Deseret Book[10]

Excel Entertainment[11]

Deseret Morning News[12]

Hawaii Reserves[13]

Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)[14]

La’ie Shopping Center

La’ie Park

La’ie Cemetery

Hukilau Beach Park

La’ie Water Company

La’ie Treatment Works (sewer)

Mstar.net[15]

Temple Square Hospitality[16]

Hotel Temple Square Corporation[17]

Weddings (JSMB and Lion House)

The Inn at Temple Square[18]

Lion House Pantry[19]

The Roof Restaurant[20]

The Garden Restaurant[21]

Passages Restaurant[22]

Zions Securities Corporation (now Utah Property Management Associates)[23]

Farm Management Corporation (commericial farms and agricultural properties)

Deseret Land and Livestock

200,000 acres of land in Rich, Morgan and Weber counties (Utah)

Sun Ranch (Martin’s Cove)

Deseret Ranches of Florida in Orlando (largest ranch in Florida)

Deseret Farms of California

Rolling Hills (Idaho)

West Hills Orchards (Elberta, Utah)

Cactus Lane Ranch (Arizona)

Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (CPB)

Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Deseret Trust Company

LDS Family Services

Property Reserves Inc. (PRI)

Ensign Peak Advisors[24]

Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)[25]

Brigham Young University (BYU)[26]

BYU – Idaho[27]

BYU – Hawaii[28]

LDS Business College[29]

Land Holdings:

Agreserves Australia LTD Kooba Station, Australia.

Deseret Ranches of Alberta Raymond, AB Canada

Agreserves LTD Cambridge, England

AgroReservas, S.C. Los Mochis, Mexico

Deseret Farms of CA Woodland, CA

Deseret Farms of CA Modesto, CA

Deseret Farms of CA Chico, CA

South valley Farms Bakersfield, CA

Deseret Security Farms Blythe, CA

Naples Farms Naples, FL

Deseret Cattle & Citrus ST. Cloud, FL

Deseret Farms of Ruskin Ruskin, FL

Kewela Plantation O’ahu, HI

Rex Ranch Ashby, NE

Riverbend Farms ST.Paul, OR

Deseret Land & Livestock Woodruff, UT

Wasatch-Dixie Farms Elberta, UT

Agreserves Cottle CO., TX

Agrinorthwest kennewick, WA

Handcart Ranch Alcova, WY

Deseret Ranches of Wyoming Cody, WY

Farmland Reserve – owns over a billion dollars of Florida land–and 0.7% of Florida.

The church finances its private investments via tithing

The church invests the tithing dollars at interest with Babylon, or the banks of the world, for three years before it spends anything on the church itself. It then takes those interest dollars and buys for-profit companies (like the City Creek mall) in order to make the boards of directors wealthy.

The members of the twelve are in the boards of directors of many of these companies. They receive speaking fees, board fees, and wages above and beyond the six figure income granted to them as a modest living allowance.

  • Ask your investigator how he/she feels about tithing and its uses.

Humanitarian aide used to make money over victims

In 2005, UK members of the church contributed $500,000 in addition to regular donations for tsunami victims. UK public records show that none of that money was spent outside of the UK, and only about 6% of it was used for any sort of assistance of individuals. Faithful members believed they were part of the worldwide effort to help tsunami victims, but instead most of that money is still on the balance sheets at the UK church headquarters, and none of it arrived at its destination.

Fast Offering is also used to make money

In the church handbook of instruction, bishops are instructed to send 95% of all fast offering donations to church headquarters, leaving only 5% for local needy families. If the ward needs additional funds, it must be requested, usually with a reminder that a bishop needs to safeguard the “Lord’s money” each time another withdrawal is made.

New Zealand tax records indicate that up to half of tithing is used to pay salaries

Charity Summary

New Zealand Tax Tithing Blog post

We have covered tithing over history and its current uses today. We’d like to ask you to commit to not pay tithing on your gross income. By not paying tithing on your gross income, you’ll save hundreds of thousands of dollars over an average lifetime, as well as help reduce the funds that the organization has for buying up private companies that then donate to political campaigns, building up reformation camps for youth (that have been shown to be harmful), and paying the people at the top, while keeping the common members donating their time and efforts.

Thank you for hearing us out and inviting us back.

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