Scott Gordon lies, deceives and misdirects his audience while accusing others of lying, deceiving and misdirecting about the church

We’re not the church, but here’s why we’re actually the church. Appeal to authority, appeal to authority…

3:00 – Evils of Google getting answers

3:15 – Evils of exmormons and how FAIR helps

3:16 – tears already there. Wow. Hard questions make him tear up.

4:21 – Families should be first to talk about less-known issues. Why are issues less known? Oh because the church has been hiding them for years. But families, man; they should know this stuff.

4:37 – Inoculation against issues encouraged, maligning internet and friends

polygamy, seerstones, first vision, process of translation, Gender, BoA, race … basically the essays

5:16 – Inoculation repeated as a good concept

5:47 – Maligning those who leave. Ignoring Dehlin’s analysis on why people leave to put “Social” on the top of the list, Mental health next, sinning, and history at the bottom. An exact flip of what the studies show.

6:18 – He admits that everyone wavers despite maligning John Dehlin as a non-believer.

6:45 – “Finding weaknesses in church leaders” perfect excuse to leave. This is the most insulting thing so far. I’d challenge Scott to please publish a list of valid reasons to leave. If he can think of none, then this is the MOST VALID REASON he could think of or mention. Failings in leaders, and it goes beyond “Weakness” in an organization is a perfectly good reason to leave. If the CEO of a company is an abusive child-molesting fraud who abuses funds entrusted to him, leaving is the most logical step. He needs to acknowledge this.

6:45 – “Minor mistakes” he cannot admit there are major mistakes and blatant systemic abuse. So it is a downplay of everything negative.

7:20 – “The church is to make bad men good, and good men better”. Evaluating this claim, do we see bad men become good? Do we see good men become corrupt? Then we can know the church is failing in its mission as stated by Scott. He does not address this.

9:27 – He admits that people can read scriptures and pray and still leave the church! This contradicts past prophets, but hey, it’s reality and I’m glad they admit this (I was reading and praying quite a bit when I left)

10:12 – Strawman about reading and praying having no questions; but this idea that one can be without doubt is in student manuals

and cited by prophets “When Shall These Things Be?” Ensign, Dec. 1996, 60).

Blame the members syndrome!

10:30 – Strawman about reading scholarly articles. Either/or fallacy.

10:44 – Inoculation sold as a positive concept

11:11 – shout out to us being the problem. Not that history is a problem. Not that Joseph’s behavior was a problem. No, modern day Laman and Lemuels.

11:45 – Reverse Alma 32 – nurturing doubt will destroy testimony. I thought it was nurturing a seed that would make a strong enough plant that it couldn’t be uprooted, but it turns out doubt can grow like a tree too, until it is so strong you don’t ever believe.

Note, he just said you can read scriptures and pray and still leave, which means that even if you don’t nurture the doubt, but nurture faith you can still end up doubting. Without realizing it he is implying that doubt is stronger than belief. Maybe because doubt is the actual path to truth?

11:50 – CES Letter is a “List of old criticism, rumors and misrepresentations, repackaged into a single document. Responses have been around for many, many years”. But what he doesn’t say is that those responses are unofficial, rejected, changed over time, and frankly fall short on the most basic issues. Gish Gallop invoked because “big lists” are scary. This from a man who publishes websites of big lists. A man who lists big lists of books. Scary I tell you. SCARRRRRY

12:44 – Researching each item in CES letter is daunting (luckily Jeremy provides links to sources so, ya know, it’s less daunting than reading the FAIR mormon cite with its circular references. But hey. HOURS of your time with SCARY lists!

12:55 – see that 16% FACT. Let’s focus on that Scott. 16% of the CES letter, FAIR admits is fact. How about that 10% falsehoods. Only 10% of the CES letter is false. And yet people who have been in the church for 30+ years read it and are shocked by what they learn. Because 90% of it is legit and troubling, that’s why.

13:25 – gets a fucking mention? That worthless site that is blatantly dishonest and misleading?

13:40 – Wow, does he mis-characterize the letter. It asks questions the church was unwilling to answer. That’s all. It doesn’t twist. It doesn’t lie. It asks.

13:55 – Problem is he believes the Book of Mormon must be a perfect book. Gee, I wonder where Jeremy got that idea


14:00 – “Translated in the way the author thinks it should have been” and where did the author get those ideas? Oh yeah, the church taught them. Another way of saying this is that the author expected the church to be honest, and Scott knows that wouldn’t happen and is mocking anyone who thinks similarly.

14:11 – “Find one little thing, anything he considers to be a flaw” yeah that’s how science works. If your hypothesis is that God gave a divine book, and you find a flaw; you should reject that hypothesis. It should be divine. But Jeremy, as Scott pointed out doesn’t find ONE flaw. He finds pages and pages of flaws.

So he produces scary lists, and strains at gnats now.

14:18 – Lists of evidences. er… go ahead. I’d love to see those evidences; but they have to be peer-reviewed, and accepted outside of mormon circles.

14:23 – “The problem with this approach is that the author has no knowledge of how translation actually takes place”. Holy shit. You’re telling me that a guy who served a mission, who is hearing impaired is unaware of translation discrepancies?

No Scott, your church showed images of a translation process that it now admits never happened for decades. Over 100 years by my counting. And now you blame the victim?

Why is steel not steel? Why is a horse not a horse? These are “Translation discrepancies” and Jeremy is hardly a typical dumb American.

Shitty. Just shitty.

As a person who is fluent in Swedish and English; let me unequivocally state the problems in the Book of Mormon are NOT related to this kind of translation issue. I challenge fully Scott to find a single word in the book of Mormon he can show the root word in Reformed Egyptian, explain that language and its context, and then explain the translation error in 1600’s English. Of course first he’d have to find a single sample of reformed egyptian…

15:09 – Strawman… this is not the stated reason Jeremy gives for why he believes the Book of Mormon false.

15:15 – “He doesn’t acknowledge the stacks of research” because he wanted an official answer. He sought out true messengers and not the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Yeah, shit on him some more there, Scott for doing what the temple instructs.

15:35 – Jeremy still has not received official answers. Jeremy’s claim is factually true. Scott, here is putting FAIR on par with prophets and apostles stating that their answers should be considered as legitimate as the church’s official answer. Pay attention because he started by clearly stating that his organization in NO WAY represents the church.

15:50 – Terrible mischaracterization of an excommunication. “I’m not sure why he wanted to stay, honestly” If you’re not sure, shut up. Don’t go there.

16:00 – Mormon Stories starts here

16:10 – “John Dehlin was Finally excommunicated this past year”. Finally, whew. So glad they got that over with. I mean, jeez, the guy runs a website on mormon stuff. Focuses on social issues.

16:22 – I know him personally, and had many many conversations with him. His sister is a member of FAIRMormon. He has tried to stay socially.

Wow so Jeremy is worth 20 minutes of straw men and scary lists but all of Mormon Stories is dismissed based on John’s personal beliefs. Shit. What about the Mark Hoffman episode where they invited people who covered the story on? No mention that many FAIRMormon individuals were on Mormon Stories? Not worth saying “We felt it worth being with John to talk about issues”. No?

They must really be afraid of John Dehlin.

17:06 – Strawman of comparing Denver Snuffer to High Priest weirdo. Funny, I think of FAIRMormon as far closer to that mindset. In fact, as stated by Scott, they are high priests, and they think Jeremy should have accepted their answers as gospel despite being unofficial so yeah, they are those guys in High Priest Quorum. Pot, this is Kettle, you’re kinda black. Also use of “Speculation” to make people scared.

17:33 – “He was asked to leave” I guess they really believe that excommunication ends peoples ability to speak or influence. Shitty belief that will come back to bite him.

17:38 – Hopewell indians. He says this guy uses known fakes and forgeries to prove his point. But Scott will later use known fakes and forgeries to prove his own point. Hey Pot, still black; sincerely, Kettle

18:35 – The book of Mormon Location is not a revealed subject. Mr. Scott, please address all the revelations Joseph Smith and others have given on the topic then. Go on. Something about Latitude and longitude in Guatemala? or hey, that “Zelph” thing? No?

18:55 – FAIRMormon are in a state of apostasy… well you did just reject hundreds of years of statements of prophets about the location of the Book of Mormon…

19:00 – Abuse of “So-called”!

19:17 – “Even the apostles” are apostate. Hang on now… the apostles were smart enough to take no position. But nudge-nudge wink wink, they agree with you don’t they Scott? Even though they publicly say no position;


19:26 – “I am nervous bringing him up because he’s still a member” and again, excommunication is seen as de-legitimizing arguments


19:30 – “I’m right and everyone who doesn’t believe as I do bad attitude”. Kettle is calling again Pot, about how black you are!

“Dangerous to himself and others”. Shit, you just can’t help yourself can you. Beliefs are dangerous. False beliefs. Faked data. You should really shut down FAIR if you believe this.

19:40 – “I don’t know what is on the horizon”. Gee, if only you belonged to an organization of prophets…

19:50 – traps Purposeful misrepresentation on the internet. You mean like showing Joseph using the plates while translating, but knowing it was done with a rock in a hat? Like that?

20:22 – “We joke about everything not being true on the internet” Yes at FAIRMormon, that publishes a website, I’m sure you do. Notice there are no laughs at this commercial. The audience is not finding this funny at all. Discrediting the repository of all human public knowledge is pretty shitty as a tactic, and is going to fail in the long run.

21:20 – in an attempt to discredit old arguments, uses fake/hoax Jericho sword

. Link is FAIR article discussing debunking

21:48 – By using a debunked set of evidence and admitting the claim is in the CES Letter; he has just given more credibility to Jeremy for asking the question than he has in answering it.

21:55 – Spaniards brought Horses – Tar Pits (from 10,000 years prior to BoM). Evidence of them dying out is literally a few steps away from Scott where he took that picture. I know, I’ve been there. The wolf skulls are just down the isle, Scott. You remember them? Shit, dude, this is so dishonest. It’s like taking a photograph of the twin towers from 2000 to prove 9/11 didn’t happen. Everyone who has done the slightest research on the subject knows this evidence is bad. You should feel bad.

22:28 – when or if they went extinct. Literally no one outside of Mormonism believes they did not go extinct. “Pretty close to the times”. Funny how you didn’t mention how distant it is. Say THOUSANDS of years?

22:38 – Letters and histories. “Significant contradictory sources are often omitted.” You mean like in the Sunday School manuals… you mean like in conference talks. The accusation that history is biased swings both ways. Please criticize the LDS Apostles for their abuse on this as well, or you are just a shill. Pot… hey this is kettle again. BLACK

22:51 – Ellipses. Seriously one of the biggest issues I have with the church is the abuse of ellipses by FAIR or the actual manuals of the church. Pot, hey pot! Kettle here. Black!

23:00 – “Most church history issues are cleared up by going back and reading the source” then why the fuck don’t the church manuals ever make a citation before 1977? Huh? Because context fucking matters? Why do the exmormon sites have longer and more sources and bibliographies than FAIRMormon papers which often cite other FAIRMormon papers rather than original sources?!

note: Brian Hales published a lengthy claim about Sylvia Lyon’s being a spiritual daughter based on a previously unpublished letter later to be found a fraud. He admitted this in a private setting in a group of historians. However he has not yet retracted his video on the subject. Ponder this for a minute; context can be wrong; but with FAIR Mormon members we see them literally bringing up hoaxes, false claims and forgeries as evidence long after they are disproved and then blaming others for that behavior.

23:30 – First Book of Napolean. This is a bastardization of understanding statistics. That both sets of phrases would exist in the books at that rate and that length is still evidence one is a derivative of another REGARDLESS OF THE ELLIPSES. All Scott proves here is he has no knowledge of N-grams or how statistics, as a field, works.

Jeremy could have been clearer in the CES Letter on what was going on; but I believe Scott does understand statistics and having NO OTHER ARGUMENT has misled people to push the misconception that Jeremy was abusing ellipses rather than admit that it is disconcerting that the two books would be that similar in phrasing.

25:14 – Richard Dawkins. Here is the thing; Richard Dawkins has truly read the bible. His words ARE Derivative from a modern Christian world. This is not counter proving Jeremy’s case at all. However, this may mean Scott is statistically stupid (That is, he refuses to learn statistics) because he didn’t pull out words or phrases that were rare, but uber-common as a comparison.

Think of it this way, if I say the words “Autobots, roll out

” the odds I’ve seen something Transformers related is incredibly high, because the phrase is unique. If I also say “Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.” it supports that belief, and that I saw a Michael Bay movie version. The more phrases I quote, the more sure you are, EVEN IF I DON’T QUOTE THEM IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH.

The concept is simple, but appears too difficult for Scott to comprehend.

25:40 – Using strange words. Like “Macuahuitl” a sword not present during Nephite times that FAIR loves, or any number of big words they use when debunking. But I guess they are only strange when exmormons use them.

His complaints:

  • “Extra-terrestial humanoid”… not inaccurate. rest is a strawman.

Oh wait, only one?

  • 26:10 – Changes to the book of Mormon. “Nothing true about that statement”… the 4,000 changes were documented by the Tanners; and so he is looking up old claims and then debunking them. cough. Pots and kettles are now dancing in blacklight.

26:32 – Grammar changes. He plays this down, but remember, this was word-by-word given by God to Joseph; and yet God doesn’t know Grammar? That’s quite the claim.

“Insignificant” except the word “White and Delightsome” changed to “Pure and Delightsome” right? you’ll cover that I’m sure because the implica… no? Okay.

26:56 – “The Secret” – Like say, a temple ceremony? Truths not yet revealed. Fuckin’ hell your entire religion is about newly revealed lost secrets!

27:27 – “The church is not transparent”. Finding the seerstone when I was a kid was as difficult as finding the plans of demolition for Arthur Dent’s house


Okay, let’s test this right now. Go to church on Sunday and ask “Tell me about Brigham Young’s Bloodstone amulet!” Demand they talk about it. Ask what it was made of, how much protection it provided, and where you can see it. Then go to the UDOP museum or google and in 5 seconds… oh, there it is

That’s what he means by non-transparent. This thing was around Brigham’s fucking neck every time he went into danger; and yet no one will tell you about it, or how to get one. Despite many mormons going into danger daily!

27:31 – Misdirection. We only got it after long searches and then; facing excommunication, loss of callings, etc. So so so dishonest

27:37 – Joseph Smith Papers. Google “Leonard Arrington” and see the fabrication here. The church has suppressed most of this for over a hundred years. It is in spite of the church these things are coming to light, not because of it.

28:22 – “not one item examined” … experts in their fields. what bullshit is that. Experts in their fields are not associated with the church. They aren’t a legit source, remember? The church, itself must take a position. Members expect the church to take a position.

28:44 – “Sunday school is not a church history class.” Fuckers. whole section is just deceptive and member-blaming.

29:30 – “Top secret places we hide things” – please note that the Liahona, the Swedish people have access to, did not mention the seerstone until 2015. Last year. This is not honest behavior.

29:41 – MHA gave an award to D. Michael Quinn who was excommunicated for doing history research. Think about that.

30:10 – “I’ve never heard students complain, I’ve never heard this before”. Shit, we hear it here all the time. Maybe he needs to remove some wax-build up in his ears, or stop having an Honor Code that not only excommunicates doubters, but removes their academic futures from them if he wants to get honest feedback.

30:40 – “The Negative”. Oh god… a 1950’s stereo-typical date example where the church is the beautiful young women.

Focus on positive… blah blah. Ignore the founder of the church molesting children and removing consent from relationships, focus instead on the way we help during catastrophes.

32:40 – “The Desire to sin”

seriously? I’m glad he doesn’t spend long here.

33:22 – Trust – this is what it’s all about. You, Mr. Scott; have tanked your trust. I trust my friends more than church leaders because they haven’t repeatedly lied to me. They don’t ask me for money promising blessings that never come. They don’t tell me I’ll suffer endlessly unless I obey. I trusted you. My father trusted you. He taught me to work my whole life so that I could contribute to you and your cause. I spent years working to this end. I am sorely disappointed in your frankly dishonest and deceitful attempt to insult the church detractors for their inquiries as well as the Swedish / Nordic people that are my heritage and that I learned to love on my mission.

I bid you adieu at this point. May you never speak publicly without the ridicule you so richly deserve again.

This entry was posted in Apologetics. Bookmark the permalink.
Last edited by Mithryn on July 12, 2016 at 7:49 pm

4 Responses to Scott Gordon lies, deceives and misdirects his audience while accusing others of lying, deceiving and misdirecting about the church

  1. MosiasH says:

    Another excellent piece! I’m of Swedish descent as well!

  2. Sam Young says:

    Obviously, Scotty is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I wouldn’t dare bring up the CES Letter, Mormon Stories or John Dehlin at any discussion at church. Many members have not yet heard of these sources. Good Brother Gordon may be in good standing. But, he might be joining the ranks of excommunicants, once the brethren see more and more members doubt and leave after his presentations.

  3. Brother of Mithryn says:

    I know you’re going through a difficult time right now and emotions are running high, but please tone down the language. Some people won’t read any further once they encounter “bad words” and we want them to continue to read. In order to keep this a ‘family show’ substitute harsher words with “Fetch”, “Fetchers”, “Gosh Darn”, and “Heck”. As in: “Gosh darn you, I’ll see you in outer darkness you fetcher!”

    • Mithryn says:

      Possibly, but the “substitute words” are part of the culture, aren’t they. It is giving a thought to the culture of the religion before I use a word. I say whole heartedly, they do not own me. And I won’t let them into my brain before I use a word either.

      Especially when we consider what it means to “Take the name of the Lord in Vain”, the origin of the curse word and one of the 10 commandments. Here we have a man, saying he isn’t speaking for the Church (and hence the lord) but then telling everyone that they should turn to him and his friends for the answers, while he is blatantly lying.

      That is far more an instance of taking the name of the Lord in Vain than any number of curse words

      Also, this:

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